Response to ‘lostsheepofisrael’ on his ‘Free from Law or Free from Sin. Part 2’ Comment.

11 Mar

Hi Jay,

I would like to thank you for your response; I trust this helps you on your journey.  I have placed your words in bold.

I have a question about Romans 10:

1 Dear brothers and sisters,[a] the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. 2 I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. 3 For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. 4 For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given (Did he, how?).[b] As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God. 

I would firstly like to ask, what English translation are you using? As it seems to me that it is a paraphrase.  But I could be wrong.  Romans 10:4 should read more like this, “For Messiah is the goal of the ‘Torah unto righteousness ‘to everyone who believes.”  You see the Tanak prophesied about Yeshua right from the beginning.  The above version gives the typical “Christian’ view of the Torah in the way it paraphrases that verse.  As you can see Messiah is the goal of the Torah, some versions say ‘end’ in place of goal.  The Greek word is ‘Telos’ and it means ‘the point aimed at is the goal’.  So let us re-read, it says that, “Yeshua is the goal or purpose of the ‘Torah unto righteousness…”  You ask how he did this.  Quite simply by the cross.  His death, burial and resurrection, brought us into relationship with himself, brought us back into ‘right standing with YHVH, that is righteousness.

Salvation is for everyone (to me it is only for those who turn back and repent) 

You are ignoring or missing a very crucial part of what Paul said.  He said that “Yeshua is the goal of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone WHO BELIEVES” not just to ‘everyone’.  And you are right; there is no salvation without repentance.  But can you repent without believing first?  No I don’t think so, as you have to believe that you are a sinner and in need of Yeshua before you will repent.  Remember Abraham.  Was he given the Torah before or after he was made righteous?  Was it not after?  And how was he made righteous?  Was it not by belief?  Yes by belief.  So Paul is not saying anything different to what the Torah says.

5 For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (To bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (To bring Christ back to life again).” 8 In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;
it is on your lips and in your heart.”[d]

(I thought Yahshua’s message was repent and turn back to Torah)

I am going to place in a word for word translation of these verses so that you can see the difference.  The people who put together the translation/paraphrase that you are using have a distorted view of Scripture.  So in a word for word translation it reads better like this:

5 For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, “The man who does these shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah down; or, 7 “‘who shall descend into the abyss?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead. 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming:”

Are we supposed to live by the Torah? Yes.  Are we supposed to live by faith? Yes.  But what ‘saves’ us?  Is it the keeping of Torah?  Or faith in the Torah giver?  Is it not faith in the Torah giver!  Why did Yisra’ĕl die in the wilderness?  Was it not because of their unbelief?  Yes it was because of their unbelief, and that is why they sinned.  The only thing now is the ‘but’ in verse 6, which makes the one statement more true than the other, it makes a comparison of the one statement against the other.  But this word that is translated as ‘but’ can also be translated as ‘and’.  If my Greek understanding is right, this word is translated in different ways based solely on the context.  In this context I am of the opinion that ‘and’ is better than ‘but’.  So to really understand what Paul is saying, the verses in the Tanak that he is quoting need to be read.  The context in the Tanak needs to be brought into the context in these verses; you will then see that the context is the same.  We are to live according to the Torah, but to live according to the Torah we must believe first.

I don’t see your point in this statement?  If you read Deuteronomy 30 you will see what Paul is trying to say, as this is the Torah portion that he is quoting.  The whole point of Deuteronomy 30 is about repenting and turning back to Torah. So then, is that a different message than what Yeshua preached?  No it is not.

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach:
9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.( this is Paul’s formula which cannot be correct)

It is not a formula; as one is not saved by’ if you do 1, 2, 3 then you will be saved’.  This is no magic trick, that’s for sure.  I would like to ask you to please explain how you can say that because it is Paul’s ‘formula’ then it cannot be correct?  I think you are bringing in a bias toward Paul so that you are unable, and maybe unwilling, to really look at what he is saying.  Grace through faith has always been YHVH’s way, right from the beginning.  Now if you study this word ‘confess’ and you take it back into the Tanak through the Septuagint you will see that to ‘confess’ has a fuller meaning of swearing or vowing allegiance to Yeshua as Master and not just saying ‘Jesus is Lord; because any Jack on the street can say ‘Jesus is Lord’.  Is saying that going to make any difference?  Nope.  It is absolute faith in the fact that YHVH, as Yeshua died and rose again, declaring that He is Elohim that would cause anyone to truly swear allegiance to Yeshua as Master.

10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God (not by obedience to Yah’s Torah?),

No we are not made right through obedience to Torah.  Please show me in the Torah where it shows that Torah makes us right with Elohim.  Was Abraham made right with Elohim by obeying Torah?  Or by believing YHVH?  Was it not by believing YHVH?  David, when he committed adultery and murder, was he made right by keeping Torah; that is by the sacrifice of animals?  No it was through repentance and faith in YHVH for His forgiveness.  But that aside, what was his deserved punishment, according to Torah, for his sins of adultery and murder?  Was it not death?  Yet YHVH did not ask for him to be stoned.  Does that not show the grace of YHVH that came through David’s deep faith in his Elohim, even there in the ‘OT’.  Was Yisra’ĕl brought out of Mitsryim by keeping Torah or by faith in the blood of the Lamb?  Was it not YHVH’s grace that brought Yisra’ĕl out of Mitsryim?  Was it not His grace that saved them out of bondage and brought them to the mountain where they THEN received Torah?  Being brought out of Mitsryim always comes before the giving of instructions.  That is how it has always been, that is the way it will always be and that is the way it is with Yeshua.

and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”[e] 12 Jew and Gentile[f] are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”[g]
(There seem to be several different ways of being saved spoken of here?)

No Paul is not saying there are different ways.  He is saying the same thing all the way through.  You see, Paul is quoting from Joel 2:32.  You should read the whole context.  The word ‘call’ is the Hebrew word ‘qara’, which means ‘to call, to call out, to call a name, or to give a name”.  It also has the meaning to call a set apart gathering and for calling out a scroll (Torah) in the presence of those gathered.  The Hebrew concept here is not just calling the actual Name of YHVH for salvation, but calling on YHVH is synonymous with living under His authority and His ways,  as a way of life.  Those who call on the Name of YHVH do the things of YHVH;, that is the Torah.

Please remember I am searching also.


I am praying that YHVH will give you understanding so that the enemy does not snatch away the seed.



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